tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post7044241029038688023..comments2023-12-23T10:18:58.321+00:00Comments on The Extra Bold Blog: Greens would condemn billions to povertyJoe Ottenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-12451761944270078682007-07-18T18:40:00.000+01:002007-07-18T18:40:00.000+01:00From an American prospective I find it interesting...From an American prospective I find it interesting how you green movement which is much more organized then ours in the US has not figured out that it is possible to be pro-business and pro-green which is what I want and have talked about in my own blog.<BR/><BR/>http://baranoff.typepad.com/cheaper_electric/energy_politics/index.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-9143152409783754342007-06-05T21:26:00.000+01:002007-06-05T21:26:00.000+01:00Hi Keith, thanks for your comment.I wonder if it i...Hi Keith, thanks for your comment.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if it is a redeeming thing that such diverse political ideologies can work together in a political party.<BR/><BR/>Obviously the opposite extreme of total agreement is also wrong. But I would have thought that people with incompatible political beliefs ought to be in different political parties. Otherwise what does the party stand for?Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-38780426098773374772007-06-05T08:58:00.000+01:002007-06-05T08:58:00.000+01:00I have to disagree with darren in that I have been...I have to disagree with darren in that I have been in the party for the past 30 years and I and many of my collegues are on the extreme left. Not the SWP left but more the Anarchist left. Sadly there are many in the party who are middle of the road Lib Demish type people. The redeming thing about the Green party is that all these political ideologies can work together.<BR/>As for Toms statement , middle class, public sector jobs at least these people are getting off their backsides and doing something rather than critising and doing nothing. Not all of us are wealthy many are just surviving.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05076572899222166794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-45901407061506542332007-05-09T23:04:00.000+01:002007-05-09T23:04:00.000+01:00But if Greens are hostile to markets as you sugges...But if Greens are hostile to markets as you suggest the Green Party wouldn't have spent time and energy advocating fiscal measures and market mechanisms (green taxation, congestion charging, eco tax breaks etc) or advocating various regulatory instruments, we would simply say what the far left say and promise to solve environmental and social problems by bringing the entire economy under workers' control. All of the policy measures the Green Pary advocates are ones designed to operate in a mixed market economy rather than a command economy. I agree, however, our economic policy needs refreshing and revising and we agreed to commission a review of this at our last Autumn conference.DarrenJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553692431589974151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-48179985538190232402007-05-09T22:20:00.000+01:002007-05-09T22:20:00.000+01:00Darren,Obviously you know the current state of the...Darren,<BR/><BR/>Obviously you know the current state of the party better than I do. But I would have thought that if people like Matt Sellwood or Brian Leslie (sorry Matt, for that juxtaposition) were a small minority the party should have been able to agree a clearer economic policy. While either can win just a few votes on the floor, the policy will be fudged at best.<BR/><BR/>While indeed there are things that corporations do that we should be angry about, the emphasis there seems to be on redirecting concern for environmental sustainability ("and social justice") into hostility towards corporations is troubling. When that energy could be spent coming up with joined up solutions to practical problems (whether in the form of taxes, regulations, public spending or whatever).<BR/><BR/>It looks like a class war analysis trying to get in by the back door.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-71309424972393698512007-05-09T21:50:00.000+01:002007-05-09T21:50:00.000+01:00Hi Joe!I don't accept that the Green Party is host...Hi Joe!<BR/><BR/>I don't accept that the Green Party is hostile to business. In fact, given our serious engagement with some of the big green energy providers, for example, as well as the work of elected Greens I think we have a far better relationship with business than we did when you were a member back in the 90s. Yes, we are hostile to unnacountable, overpowerful corporations like Tesco and McDonalds but hostility to neoliberal economics does not equate to hostility to business per se. Promoting greater economic self-reliance is not about saying no to any trade at all either. If we were really advocating autarky why would Greens have put so much energy into promoting fair trade initiatives? <BR/><BR/>Yes there are some marxists in the party and yes there are some with eccentric theories about monetary reform but in no way do either of these groups amount to a sizeable block in the party - never mind the two-thirds of the party you suggest. I would say that most Green Party Members are indeed to the left of the Lib-Dems but way to the right of the SWP. I don't find that an uncomfortable place to be in and it does not prevent us from working constructively with other mainstream political parties in local and regional government, the Scottish Parliament and the EU.<BR/><BR/>DarrenDarrenJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553692431589974151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-56647900171749144782007-05-09T13:32:00.000+01:002007-05-09T13:32:00.000+01:00Darren,Good to hear from you again - I always thou...Darren,<BR/><BR/>Good to hear from you again - I always thought you were one of the sounder greens.<BR/><BR/>I'm not suggesting a conspiracy. I do think your econonomic policies are a fudge - a necessary fudge because a party united by its desire for sustainability has disparate ideas about how to bring it about.<BR/><BR/>Over the 90s the left in the party gained the upper hand - you must have noticed this. Now you have elected Derek as Principal Speaker - this says something about the party, don't you think?<BR/><BR/>And some of those who are not of the 'left' economically are if anything even worse - the whole funny money brigade, about whom Derek is quite rightly scathing.<BR/><BR/>If a third of the delegates are marxist, a third funny money and a third moderate, obviously no unfudged economic policy can be agreed.<BR/><BR/>And fudged hostility to business is still hostility.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-50275979231124958702007-05-09T12:38:00.000+01:002007-05-09T12:38:00.000+01:00Tom,If The Green Party is just a depository for fo...Tom,<BR/><BR/>If The Green Party is just a depository for former reds who have no real interest in the environment, how come I've spent 20 years in the party, managed to represent the Greens on the London Assembly for the past seven years, lead a Group of six on Lewisham Council - and no-one thought to tell me I had to be a raving marxist to do any of this?<BR/><BR/>If all our councillors are rabid marxists how come they elected me as chair given my outright hostility to the far left and revolutionary politics? Or is that all part of a cunning plan to hoodwink the electorate? Wow - a conspiracy theory. How exciting. Do explain more.<BR/><BR/><BR/>DarrenDarrenJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553692431589974151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-76723681005879862122007-05-04T09:40:00.000+01:002007-05-04T09:40:00.000+01:00Sorry about the poor formatting, originally in thi...Sorry about the poor formatting, originally in this post. I sent it from my phone while on the train. So I wasn't blogging when I could have been knocking up, OK?<BR/><BR/>Have popped into the excellent Hal's coffee house Argyle St, Glasgow, to fix it.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-48164698072719330552007-05-03T20:37:00.000+01:002007-05-03T20:37:00.000+01:00Another good post, Joe.The Greens are - as I'm sur...Another good post, Joe.<BR/><BR/>The Greens are - as I'm sure you're aware - a repository for all sorts of former Reds who have realised that an openly-socialist party is unacceptable to the electorate. So instead they have seized upon environmental challenges as an excuse for all the same (tired) old policies that used to be promoted on economic grounds.<BR/><BR/>They are misguided for the same reasons. Just as state planning and protectionism do not promote economic welfare, so they do not promote ecological welfare. Freedom maximises wealth, and as wealth increases industry becomes more efficient. <BR/><BR/>I wonder what proportion of Greens are comfortable middle-class people with public sector jobs for whom the realities of running a business or worrying about being able to afford a (nice, semi-detatched) house are alien.Liberal Polemichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05002372579024659424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-28791961001527992082007-05-03T18:03:00.000+01:002007-05-03T18:03:00.000+01:00As I'm sure you know, the Green Party uses environ...As I'm sure you know, the Green Party uses environmental concern to promote its own ideology which has nothing to do with the environment.<BR/><BR/>Some of their policies would in fact harm the environment - as you point out their extreme localism would lead to higher pollution due to the lack of specialisation but also because it condemns the world to poverty (the default state of mankind) and its the poor who damage the environment most (perhaps CO2 emissions would go down, but particulate pollution, water pollution, deforestation, destruction of natural habitat and most other forms of pollution would soar).Tristanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15395992764678278326noreply@blogger.com