tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post3336681527750873983..comments2023-12-23T10:18:58.321+00:00Comments on The Extra Bold Blog: Greens and Keynes: total muddleJoe Ottenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-2134498145739710182010-04-06T17:19:01.818+01:002010-04-06T17:19:01.818+01:00Cowboy, you might as well ask what the point is o...Cowboy, you might as well ask what the point is of discussing politics at all. At least I am playing the ball.<br /><br />It is true I was less confident expressing myself 15 years ago. I guess because I was still trying to reconcile strands of an ideology that I now recognise defy reconciliation.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-82565434237927225592010-04-06T16:38:24.287+01:002010-04-06T16:38:24.287+01:00Joe, what is the point of using so much space to s...Joe, what is the point of using so much space to slag off the Green party. And I wonder is it your own work? You benefitted from Green party membership when you had it, and you were not so erudite in polemics then.limestone cowboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-12900040388183944502010-03-03T21:24:13.537+00:002010-03-03T21:24:13.537+00:00Right. And "working less" implies massiv...Right. And "working less" implies massive cuts in public services. Because all this excessive work either pays for public services through taxation, or is directly involved in delivering them.<br /><br />So what I'm hearing is a confirmation that the Greens would be the biggest cutters of public services of all.<br /><br />Now maybe you're right that this is the best thing to do, but in that case why do you never argue for it openly?Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-52246306616584218412009-10-23T17:36:53.345+01:002009-10-23T17:36:53.345+01:00The muddle is easily resolved if only you go back ...The muddle is easily resolved if only you go back to Keynes and realize that the difference between Keynes and Keynesianism is night and day. The long view for Keynes involved getting past the "economic problem" to focus on the good life. For Keynesianism there is no long view. It's just one economic problem after another. The key to all this is a letter Keynes wrote to T.S. Eliot in 1945 explaining that the economic stimulus strategy was only one application of an intellectual theorem. The other two legs of the tripod were redistributing income from the wealthiest to the rest of us and working less. Yes... working less. <br /><br />Shockingly, working less is a key strategy recommended in the Sustainable Development Commission's Prosperity without Growth? report. So the SDC is more Keynesian than the Keynesians!!!Sandwichmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159060882083015637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-54808060475716363852009-10-23T14:49:18.521+01:002009-10-23T14:49:18.521+01:00Local people controlling resources without privati...Local people controlling resources without privatisation or regulation, is dispersal of power.<br /><br />I would be happy to see experiments along those lines, but I wouldn't impose it as the only way - co-operatives can go wrong when they get too ideological rather than focussing on what the co-op is there to deliver, and my guess is that this is similar.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-68890978124543405172009-10-23T12:54:58.407+01:002009-10-23T12:54:58.407+01:00so you don't know about Elinor Ostrom...do hav...so you don't know about Elinor Ostrom...do have a look though.<br /><br />She is very important.<br /><br />Keynes is dead but spending some cash on a green new deal seems an excellent idea, any way Elinor is a lot lot more important.Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-67760446879998754312009-10-23T00:01:24.571+01:002009-10-23T00:01:24.571+01:00Elinor Ostrom is about the dispersal of power, rig...Elinor Ostrom is about the dispersal of power, right? That is what liberalism is.<br /><br />The 'prosperity without growth' thesis is interesting, if a little evasive - so long as people are free to choose their own paths, whether this is measured in increasing cash values or not is not important. I don't prejudge that it should or should not.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-25405367810461756952009-10-22T22:50:49.659+01:002009-10-22T22:50:49.659+01:00Go on Joe gives your opinions on Elinor Ostrom!
i...Go on Joe gives your opinions on Elinor Ostrom!<br /><br />if you want my opinions on growth have a look at the SDC document 'Prosperity without Growth'Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-81494863929020729292009-10-21T00:13:57.745+01:002009-10-21T00:13:57.745+01:00Joe "do you also support high taxes explicitl...Joe "do you also support high taxes explicitly as a means to reduce economic growth?"<br /><br />Like the Lib Dems and most parties the Greens don't all come from the same place in terms of economic philosophy and I would say that of those who think about such things there are probably a number of different approaches.<br /><br />I love the Green New Deal approach, for example, and I would add to it's eco-Keynesianism radical attempts to democratise the economy.<br /><br />As a short/medium term measure against unemployment, poverty and economic recession I'm for a mass spending plan that draws its funding from progressive taxation which will mean a heavy burden on the richest (and to a lesser extent scrapping wasteful anti-social projects like trident and id cards).<br /><br />I have to say what I don't see it as is a means of tackling economic growth. Now I think some Greens probably do and certainly a 'zero growth' economy is one thing that I'm less enthused by than some of my colleagues.<br /><br />Some days I think it's because that's too rich even for my blood, on others I think it's because 'growth' is an abstract concept that we're defining in different ways - it's probably the former though.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-62490095140384170532009-10-20T22:08:29.790+01:002009-10-20T22:08:29.790+01:00Jason, I struggle to tell the difference between &...Jason, I struggle to tell the difference between "the terms of this debate are false" and "I haven't got an answer".<br /><br />I largely agree with your suggestions, although I would fail to find enough money for a Citizens' Income.<br /><br />But it would make sense, after a fashion, to say: we will shrink the economy by taxing you heavily if you work hard, and paying you a CI even if you don't.<br /><br />But if shrinking - or even "stabilising" the economy is what you are after, the cuts will have to go a lot further than Trident and ID cards. The Greens would have to be the biggest cutters of public services of all.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-57967390832074726822009-10-20T21:40:02.130+01:002009-10-20T21:40:02.130+01:00Speaking personally, the problem is the terms of t...Speaking personally, the problem is the terms of the debate make proper discussion rather difficult. It's not really about stimulus vs cuts from my Green perspective.<br /><br />Yes stimulus is needed: Hence the jobs creation proposals in the Green New Deal report we Greens championed.<br /><br />Yes cuts are needed: Goodbye Trident, ID cards, expensive wars, wasteful farm subsidies, byzantine tax and credit systems etc.<br /><br />Yes reforms are needed: Much simpler taxes, citizens income instead of a plethora of credits & top-ups, change financial regulation and so on.<br /><br />It's just such a sterile discussion to say "we bailed out the banks at massive expense, do we pay it back now or wait until later?"<br /><br />Let's acknowledge bailing the banks without any significant reform other than creating even bigger banks (which certainly must be too big to fail now) was and remains a disaster.<br /><br />Then let's look at the whole budget and sort it out. It is a shame Clegg & co has decided to join the debate on the same false terms as the other two.Jason Kitcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740959787903915857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-83011881653273226942009-10-20T21:29:12.680+01:002009-10-20T21:29:12.680+01:00Given Keynesianism is necessary to support the cor...Given Keynesianism is necessary to support the corporate state I'd have thought the Greens would be against it.<br /><br />One of the biggest cons ever pulled is the corporate liberals convincing the left that they're helping the little man...Tristanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15395992764678278326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-84220508361511718962009-10-20T19:37:42.692+01:002009-10-20T19:37:42.692+01:00'Will the real Green Party & their Policie...'Will the real Green Party & their Policies please stand up?' - when this happens it will be the end of them as a political party - they are a Heinz 57 party - thinking all over the place - never having to deal with power (no Green party councils).Once they are out under the spot light many folks will realise their shade of green aint theirs!!Greenfieldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-55662891434858972262009-10-20T19:11:42.147+01:002009-10-20T19:11:42.147+01:00Thanks Jim. Clearly we all want money spent on our...Thanks Jim. Clearly we all want money spent on our priorities. But do you also support high taxes explicitly as a means to reduce economic growth?Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20480185.post-60384082256298593082009-10-20T18:29:47.407+01:002009-10-20T18:29:47.407+01:00As you say we, the Greens, are a high tax and spen...As you say we, the Greens, are a high tax and spend party taking our lead from Keynes. <br /><br />However, your specific question to me was about whether there was a contradiction between the fact that "You want to challenge the economic system? And you want no cuts in public services?"<br /><br />So it wasn't 'guff' about paradigm shifts when you'd asked about tax cuts - it was a direct answer to a higher level question about the economic system itself - that I do want to change, even whilst using the systems in place right now.<br /><br />If you'd asked a simple question on whether we support a high tax and high spend approach at the moment my answer would not have included the word paradigm but would have been "Yes we do. Taxing the rich the most and poorest the least, if at all."<br /><br />Hope that clears things up for you.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.com